P.B. Would you be up for an interview for the blog, on here? at your leisure of course... as I want the conversation to grow, and my questions come from a place of what you say.
@bottomsandmen: Yes of course. Happy to follow your lead :) How many readers do you typically get?
P.B. before the two suspensions the most readers were the Lukas Dekan interview with about 300 reads. then the interview I did with a nullo fellow was a very close second.
Bottoms: Oh cool. I don’t really mind numbers. I just think it’s good to have discussions like this
PB: I do too. It’s why I do what I do and write the characters I write. So much of the characters I write about in the soon to be third book is SO much me on the page.
Bottoms: That’s wonderful Most of this account (Twitter) here is also autobiographical for me. It’s very personal.
PB: Let’s start with why you got so interested in the topic of fembois, boi-wives and pussybois. My writing/tweeting/blogging is also very, very, personal and very close to my heart. My writing to tend lean to things I’ve done, or said, or want to have happen if I get lucky again to find a husband again.
Bottoms: You mean how I got interested in it?
PB: Yes.
Bottoms: I suppose from personal experience. I realized since I came out that not only was I a bottom, but I was submissive as well. More recently, I've come to terms with the fact that I'm somewhat fem as well and always have been, and that this has been a source of shame to me. So, I've become interested in sexual and gendered identities for bottoms, historically, transculturally, and online, because I want to know I'm not alone. That we share similar natures and experiences and desires.
PB: That is so much my story too, but you know that if you've read my blog, and from our private conversations we've had in the past. And, darling, you're not alone by far. There are so many of us. Even with all my suspensions by Twitter I know there SO many of us. I've always been very effeminate and until the last two years I made the decision to embrace it and celebrate it instead of fighting it. My interview I did Lukas Daken a year ago got me comfortable enough to come as non-binary and say my preferred pronouns are she/her. We have SO much in common and I see people like you who are really leading the way as my "sisters."
Bottoms: Aww, that's lovely
PB: We're the same. Like you I've always identified with women. My mama, my aunts and both my Gram's were very strong women and a lot of them in abusive relationship with the men they were with including my father. The women in my life have become huge role models and inspirations for me for my entire life and I remember as a kid seeing re-runs of the "Leave it to Beaver" tv show and June Cleaver was this ideal 1950's housewife in a perfect dress, every hair in place and always wearing her pearls despite everything she did; which is the kind of role a lot of us as boiwives, myself included, take on for the men we are with. Like you I think fem bottoms have always existed, and the pressures of not being effeminate and not to be a sissy boy have created more harm than good and for many of us, again myself included, it has taken years to get over that trauma. Sadly, we ourselves in the LGBTQIA+ community do it to each other is ways I find disturbing and hurtful... like the whole "no fems, no this or no that, blah, blah, blah. It wasn't until late last year I came out as non-binary based on research I've done with a huge slant to the more feminine role and I struggled with my pronouns until my interview with Lukas Daken, and like her I use she/jer as mine as well. But that simple step for me took huge courage to take on those pronouns even though I knew it was who I am. I'm not wanting to do shots, or surgeries or to change anything to change genders... as I feel I am the gender I'm supposed to be as non-binary if that makes any sense; but I also realize being non-binary I am part of the trans community according to trans activists I've spoken with about the matter and who have become incredible, supportive friends and according to them it is because I don't identify within the confines of hetero-normative gendered thinking of only two genders, end of story when in reality there is so much more. For me it manifests itself in the way I dress and my mannerisms and the way I speak as I have a high voice that many at drive throughs or on the phone call me ma'am. I wear jewelry with men's clothes, if I wasn't on my feet a full eight hours a day at work, I'd wear high heels like I do when I go out and other things that introduce themselves in how I present myself. I've finally at almost 57 embraced that lil sissy boy I've always been.
Bottoms: Aww that's beautifully put. I find non-binary really interesting. I think it's great that you've found a way of thinking about yourself that you feel is empowering. For me, I feel I want people to see that the male sex, and the female sex, has a range of gendered expressions. A lot are typical and identify as men and women. Although I'm a male and people see me as a man, it's hardly an appropriate description for me. Hence why twink or boiwife or whatever is better. I still use he/him in public as that's easier for everyone else but sexually I'm more she/her if that makes sense. I think having a sense of our historical and transcultural precedents can help with realizing we're not especially new or unique. Other words are used and still are, but the reality is similar.
PB: Like you the way I'm seen by society is still as a male & a man and while they are wrong it is easier just to go along with it especially like myself with a job involving new people I met every single day. What I wonder is would it be easier to let it slide or to face the issue and correct them; hopefully helping them learn in the process. Although it could get exhausting easily. I think at least for me our "words/language" has helped so many to identify properly and that is empowering.
Bottoms: Yes exactly. That's really important I think :). I do think ease of understanding can be useful. But equally, what's interesting is that at least until quite recently, an effeminate gay man was instantly recognized as that, and usually assumed to be a bottom. People can instantly 'clock' people like us, I suspect, and recognize that we're not like other males.
PB: I think so too and especially as other gay/bi/downlow/men who have sex with men and especially those men who top. It's like tops have a built in "bottom radar" if you will. Thankfully. Do you find though that they are correct in their assumptions?
Bottoms: Well, they are with me! But yes, I think some men in particular can sense a special type of bottom -- one who is more submissive.
PB: I must agree with you on this idea of being a "special type of bottom" because thankfully we are not all the same even though some presumed, we are. As not every bottom thinks of themselves as a pussyboi. I find I relate more to those that do thankfully because there is so much shared ground. However, that said, I think there's a great deal of submissiveness and submission in being a bottom whether it is addressed or not. However, if it is recognized and embraced it a lot of times changes the dynamic of sex.
Bottoms: Yes, I very much agree. One of the things I've been thinking about is the differences in opinion between LGBTQ+ online media articles, often written with a political aim in mind, and what gays are saying online on places like Tumblr and Reddit, where things can be much more matter of fact. Lots of public talk about power bottoming etc., but many men still think of bottoming as inherently feminine or submissive. I think some people can be wrong in specific cases, where bottoming isn't thought of as feminine by either top or bottom. But as a general rule, I don't really have an objection to people thinking that. In terms of politics -- I just mean some people indulging in wishful thinking because it promotes an image of egalitarian relations between men or something subversive. But what I find more genuinely subversive is a male who isn't ashamed of his effeminacy and is open about what bottoming means for him.
Bottoms: Yes, which is why I had that poll about bottoming and sex. For many of us I guess simply having sex = getting fucked / sucking cock / getting rimmed. So yes, but in terms of my research, I still speak of bottoming because other GBMSM are not necessarily going to see it like us.
PB: What does the GB portion of GBMSM stand for? I'm unfamiliar with that part of it.
Bottoms: Oh, sorry. it means gay, bisexual, and men who have sex with men.
PB: Oh, golly I should have figured that out <lol>. I feel silly. That MSM I got as not all men see sex with men as being gay even, which is beyond my thinking because for me it inherently is.
Bottoms: it's more a cultural thing
PB: You think so?
Bottoms: 'Gay' actually meant something quite different originally -- it advocated for two masculine, sexually versatile men together. in explicit distinction to effeminate males with masculine men
with fixed sex roles.
PB: That's what I found researching Karl Ulrichs & Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld on "Third Gender" and what they were saying. Karl being an effeminate male. Who had a very fixed sex role.
Bottoms: Yeah, reading about Latin American homosexualities has been interesting, too
where they have a culture of machismo; and males like us are called pasivos, maricas, mariquitas etc. And the penetrative male isn't really distinguished much.
PB: I've not read much on that at all. What do you find the most interesting about Latin American homosexualities or what didn't know? Like are those terms like ours of boiwives, pussybois?
Bottoms: I think that I was amazed at the similarities. I’m very interested in biological explanations for sexualities and gendered expressions, and my historical research and wider reading into different cultures seems to strongly correlate with biological-based research. That is characterised by life-long gendered nonconformity, strong preference for receptive anal sex, and desire for masculine men and generally dislike of sexual relations with other males like themselves.
PB: Somebody here on Twitter, don’t remember who, tweeted it was a lack of a certain chemical/or something along that line is missing during pregnancy that causes this kind of characterized life-long gender nonconformity for a very strong drive, in preference to be the receptive. It's also funny you mention a dislike of sexual relations with males like ourselves, of us in chastity cages.
Bottoms: Oh, that's cool! It's funny because different cultures have words for that kind of sex, but nearly always it suggests a kind of lesbianism.
PB: I in many ways see it as that; as I think for some of us, we use the term pussygirl instead of pussyboi because we see ourselves as girls... so it could be lesbianism if you will?
Bottoms: Yeah, it's just a way of inferring that these two males don't have the masculine desire to penetrate. Do you think that the desire to penetrate is inherently masculine? And that you can't be properly masculine without it?
PB: EXACTLY... I do think the desire to penetrate, as you put, is intrinsically and only masculine and we as bottoms have absolutely no desire at all to do it. It’s also why I believe that bottoming is intrinsically feminine and such I see us as girls. And as lesbians maybe peg each other like @cagedpussyboy does in his videos.
Bottoms: Well don't you think pegging is also penetrating? I personally don't have any desire to thrust into someone. I personally don’t have desire thrust into someone whether with my own penis, or a fake one, or even a sex toy.
PB: I do strongly feel the desire, yea the NEED to penetrate is VERY inherently masculine. It's what MEN do, thankfully. I've not been properly masculine all my life even before sex. Always labeled as the "sissy boy" as far back as I can remember. And I can count on one hand and have fingers left how many times I've topped, and I feel I'm awful penetrating anybody with what others call my "dick" but I see as my clitty/nubbin/dicklet like so many other pussygurls. Besides I don't think I could ever truly be inherently masculine and it's WAY more than my just being a bottom. Although some like me think we are more than just, if you will, your average bottom "boi". Pegging could be seen as penetrating and maybe it’s the “lesbian Daddy” in me but I love playing with other girls who get it big time. Something new I’ve discovered in the last two years having this side of me.
Bottoms: yeah. I mean, that's a given isn't it? a man once said I was obviously a 'bottom boi'. but others have said pussyboy etc. or 'sub'. or whatever. I've never penetrated anyone and haven't had the desire to. it's just not in me. so I feel that means I am not like other men, for sure
PB: Penetrating with pegging I think could be seen "topping" but I don't see it that way, as when we do it to ourselves we aren't topping ourselves we're either 1). filling a need, we can't get any other way for whatever reason and there are hundreds of them or 2). we're training our pussies as so many Doms/Daddies want us to do and lastly 3). it is one way to have fun with our "sisters" were we both end up happy especially if we are pegging each other. Fulfilling our own needs if you will without a true top. Maybe it’s the “lesbian Daddy” in me that enjoys the thought of it. It’s something new I’ve discovered about myself in the last two years. But isn't it wonderful you are NOT like other men?
PB: you only "suppose so" <lol>?
Bottoms: So many these days seem shy or hesitant about calling a spade a spade
I mean, someone could look at me and say, 'oh yeah, you're totally masculine etc.'
PB: Well, I'll validate you and think I've tried to do that since meeting you here. I just had that happen this week someone calling me totally masculine and I was like um, have you totally NOT seen all of the signs? <lol>
Bottoms: Haha, well, no, nobody has ever said that to me, but I could imagine it.
PB: I felt so totally unseen it hurt. Do you think chastity cages advance our thinking on submission, obedience, effeminacy or our inherent role as HIS?
Bottoms: Hmm, I don't really talk about that much. I've always instinctively recoiled from them as I think they're unnecessary. It's a different kink.
PB: I see them very similar, as for many of us it helps reinforce our roles as the sub/passive and establishes the ideal only one true dick in our relationships and it isn't ours.
Bottoms: That's true. but for me at least, I don't need anything to help me do that. Sometimes, I’ll wear a jockstrap. But I don’t need anything to stop me from touching myself, because I don’t do that anyway.
PB: That’s true too. OMG, I love jockstraps. They are a girl’s best friend! Hides your useless clitty and exposes your pussy! Do you find touching yourself during sex as disrespectful to your man?
Bottoms: Well, maybe. But actually, physically, I’d find it difficult! If I’m doggy then I need to support myself on the bed with both elbows, and otherwise if I’m prone then my man is on top of me so I couldn’t touch myself anyway!
PB: This is why I adore you. You get it!
Bottoms: Also, I think it's quite nice feeling my penis shaking around when I'm in doggy
it's never hard when being fucked. Sometimes semi-hard, but not hard.
PB: OMG! I love flopping around.
Bottoms: Yes, I also enjoy being spanked.
Bottoms: Aww
PB: Something about smacked right on it dear dawd. OMG, I loved when my Jim did that> When we legally married he’s introduce me as his wife! I’m curious is spanking done to you as a form of punishment ad well> Or what do you think about it?
Bottoms: no not really. just as a precursor to sex. Not as punishment
PB: what would you say are some of the big things you've learned beyond what we've touched base on already?
Bottoms: I think simply that if something matters to someone, no matter how weird or odd it might seem to someone else, then that needs to be listened to. Bottom identity and experience might sound very niche, but it's a real preoccupation and personal aspect for some. I'm glad that I can try and take their / our concerns seriously.
So I think it's a great place for fem bottoms and men to share and encounter fantasies. I think the sharing of these can be encouraging -- to know that you're not alone, and that others share the kinds of things that you like. I also think it can help consolidate identities as well. It's not just about who you are, but who you want to be as well, if that makes sense?
PB: It makes total sense as I've said a number of times when I started blogging and tweeting the way I do I felt so alone as this older fem bottom and certainly in my thinking and to have had so many people respond so positively over three years has meant so much.
Bottoms: Yes -- I also think there is this assumption that fem bottoms will all be young, or at least the fem bottoms whose voices we see on Twitter. But there are older fem bottoms too, and from a poll I did it seems that most fem bottoms don't have any intention of changing their sexual preferences as they get older. So intergenerational exchange is so important I think.
PB: I think it's crucial if you will. We all have so much to learn from each other if we just talk to each other, and I think these conversations are important.
Bottoms: Absolutely. I also feel it's probably more important for fem bottoms -- the 'men' have different stories and challenges, but they're not really ours. I.e., not conforming to male-typical sexual desires and ways of being.
Bottoms: Yes exactly. For me a lot of that shaming comes from other gay men -- they can't understand someone who falls into those outdated stereotypes of being faggy and fem and a bottom it's as if we're turning back on gay liberation
PB: I mean, it's in my opinion very feminine in nature to get fucked, wanted to get fucked. I think it's what sets us apart and especially those of us who adopt fem terms for our sexual bits--- again something not everyone does or even wants to do. However, I tend to think that when we do it brings a deeper, more profound meaning to our sex lives.
Bottoms: Yes, it probably does for others, too.
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